Just returned from another great week at Polishing the Pulpit in east Tennessee, where I was able to meet three of the “fellows” on this board: Larry Miles, Phil Sanders, and Richard Reinhardt. Phil had an excellent lesson on how to prevent losing our young people to the world.
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Weylan Deaver
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Weylan Deaver
“Compelle Intrare”
In Jesus’ banquet parable (Luke 14:12-24), the master sent his servant to gather up guests for the feast. His instructions were, “Go out to the highways and hedges and compel people to come in, that my house may be filled” (v. 23, ESV).
In Latin, “compel people to come in” is written, “compelle intrare.” From early centuries of church history through medieval times and beyond, the Roman Catholic Church leaned on a grotesquely twisted interpretation of “compelle intrare” in Luke 14:23, concluding that governmental authorities had the right to coerce people into the church. In a perverse marriage, Catholicism and the state were so tied together that the former could dictate the latter use deadly force against the church’s enemies. And, the church’s enemies included whatever men and doctrines were not in lock step with what the Catholic Church taught. Forced conformity to Catholicism was the glue holding society together. Naturally, if people were allowed to study the Bible for themselves, voluntarily practice what they believed from their own study, and freely preach their views, it would be a fundamental threat to the church’s power (and the crumbling of society, as they knew it).
Reformers such as Martin Luther are often hailed for their courage in confronting the status quo in religion (i.e. Catholicism). Yet, what they created in the Reformation was simply another state religion like Catholicism—only with certain different doctrines. In other words, while Luther opposed the Catholic Church, he very much endorsed the idea that the Reformed church could use force against its own enemies.
While the reformers (such as Luther, John Calvin, etc.) were battling Catholicism, there were others insisting that both sides were wrong in their concept of a church which forced itself on everyone in a given locale. The view of these objectors was that the church of Christ consisted of voluntary believers, and that it had no connection to the state; nor was it biblical to use force in spreading the gospel. They studied their Bibles and clung to their convictions. They also found themselves mercilessly persecuted by both the Catholic Church and the Protestant Reformers.
Martin Luther commissioned his friend, Urbanus Rhegius, to fight those who were calling for a church formed only of voluntary believers. Rhegius said:
“The truth leaves you no choice; you must agree that the magistracy has the authority to coerce his subjects to the Gospel. And if you say, ‘Yes, but with admonition and well-chosen words but not by force’ then I answer that to get people to the services with fine words and admonitions is the preacher’s duty, but to keep them there with recourse to force if need be and to frighten them away from error is the proper function of the rulers….What do you suppose ‘Compelle intrare’ means?” (quoted in Leonard Verduin, The Reformers and Their Stepchildren, p. 74).
Those who thought the church and state were separate, that the state should not interfere with the church, and that the church should be organized along New Testament lines, were considered radicals and hated as enemies. One of them was Felix Manz, of Zurich, Switzerland. His goal was “to bring together those who were willing to accept Christ, obey the Word, and follow in His footsteps, to unite with these by baptism, and to leave the rest in their present conviction” (ibid.). In other words, Manz was opposed to coercion and held that the church should consist of true believers—those who wanted to accept and obey the gospel.
For his “heretical” ideas, Felix Manz had his hands tied around his bent knees, with a big stick shoved between his elbows and knees so that he could not move his arms. He was put in a boat and rowed into the Limmat River, where he was thrown into the frigid water to drown. The date was January 5, 1527.
Over the recent centuries, both Catholicism and Protestantism have had to back off of “compelle intrare,” but neither the former nor the denominations that sprang from the latter have gone all the way back to the primitive church’s organization and practice. Therein lies their insuperable problem.
If we, in the church of Christ, had lived back then, we would have been hunted like dogs by both Catholics and the Reformers. We are still at spiritual war with their religious descendants, but, thanks be, at least they cannot come after us today with a death warrant.
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Weylan Deaver
Hardeman’s closing statement
(What follows are N. B. Hardeman’s closing remarks as he brought his final speech to an end during his 1938 debate with the Baptist preacher, Ben M. Bogard, in Little Rock, Arkansas. If we have lost the regal style of his rhetoric, our language is the poorer. But, if we ever lose sight of the sentiment he expressed, our souls will be truly impoverished—Weylan).
“Let me say this as a final word to you friends and brethren. If you have named the name of the Lord; if you have tasted the good word of God; if you stand today a child of high heaven with all sins forgiven—to God be all the praise and glory, and to us the encouragement. I want to suggest to you, many of whom I know that I will never again see. I take you to record this day that, as much as time and opportunity have afforded, I am pure from the blood of men who have been listening. Why? I have not shunned to declare the whole counsel of God. Brethren, I beg of you in heaven’s name, let us buckle on God’s armor afresh; let us raise aloft the banner, let us unsheathe the sword of the Spirit, and so long as God lets us live, let us fight under the leadership of him who has never yet lost a conflict. And then by and by, when life’s race has been run, its battles fought and its victories won, the Captain of our salvation shall bid us stack arms on the glad plains of a never-ending eternity. There he will have us to lay aside our battle-scarred armor, and hang our swords upon the jasper walls of that eternal city. Then with palms of victory and crowns of glory we will sweep through the gates into the grandeur of our Father’s home, across which no shadows have ever come, wherein we can see beautiful sentences of life, punctuated by the stars of eternal glory, enabling us to read our titles clear to mansions over there. May God bless you is my prayer.”Like this:
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Mike Riley
An eloquent and elevating closing by brother, Hardeman, one of the greatest preachers who ever lived – a man of great conviction and determination: http://www.therestorationmovement.com/hardeman,nb.htm
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Mike Riley
Type in “Hardeman” in the keywords section, and you can listen to seven of his sermons: http://www.wsoj.net/
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Chad Dollahite
wow…just to read it is impressive…I can only imagine how it would have been to hear it in person!
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Ron
I just finished reading the first debate topic between (again) in the book. Currently I am reading the Nichols-Weaver debate.
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pianobron1
N.B. Hardeman and my granddaddy were dear friends. I have a retouched photo of them standing in the Hardeman’s yard in Henderson, TN, smiling at one another.
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Weylan Deaver
It was a good past weekend for the Sherman Drive congregation. Saturday evening a young dad-to-be baptized his wife. Sunday morning they identified as members here, as did another man who had been visiting us for several months. My oldest son (age 19) preached the afternoon sermon, following which one of our newer members came forward to be restored to God.
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Weylan Deaver
I’ve been reading some Moses E. Lard recently, and am impressed.
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J. Randal Matheny
I have his Quarterly. If you find that story about the preacher who converted only a little girl at a meeting, and was disappointed, let me know. I’m almost sure I read it there.
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Ron
I hope to buy a set one day – assuming it can be purchased and at a reasonable cost.
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drkenney
I read that Guy N. Woods attributed the writings of Mose E. Lard as one of the major influences for his writing style.
A person can download Volume 1 in PDF format for free at http://books.google.com/books?id=DYcfAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22Lard's+Quarterly%22&hl=en&ei=rwAfTqa9Ecbu0gGqqozLAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
Hope you will post some significant “pull-quotes” along the way….
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Weylan Deaver
After wading through a most tedious tome on the Protestant Reformation, it is refreshing to read on the subject in F. W. Mattox’ book, “The Eternal Kingdom.” In 70 pages, Mattox out-does the 357 pages of Lewis Spitz’ volume. Though I’ve had his book forever, I am discovering it for the first time. Does anyone know of a better one-volume history of the church written by a Christian?
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Weylan Deaver
The Case for Christ
This morning I finished reading Lee Strobel’s book, The Case for Christ. Chock full of outstanding material of great apologetic value, it is such a shame that, in conclusion, he encourages readers to embrace a faith-only salvation. I wish he had delved into the actual gospel as deeply as he did into the evidence for Jesus’ deity, in order to an accurate presentation of it.
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Richard Hill
I read it a few years back and felt exactly the same way. It is a great read and I highly recommend to everyone. I just warn them about the just-believe-and-be-saved ending.
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Weylan Deaver
We made it back home to Denton Saturday night after a week at church camp in west Texas, where the mercury rose to around 111 degrees. I got to teach eighth graders in the morning, do a Q&A session with high schoolers in the afternoon, and sit in on Dad’s class for the men each morning, and hear Dan Winkler preach twice each day (he actually spoke three times a day, but my own class overlapped one of them). The brethren in Sheffield are great people, and I heard there were over 300 at camp (despite the heat, austere conditions, and being in the middle of nowhere). Now it’s back to a more normal routine…but with air conditioning.
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J. Randal Matheny
Being in the middle of nowhere with the Deavers and Dan Winkler sounds like a winner to me. Except for the heat.
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Mike Riley
Weylan, what’s the name of the West Texas church camp? If the high schoolers had a Q&A session with you, I’m sure they learned a great deal.
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Weylan Deaver
Mike, it’s the Pecos River Encampment (http://pecosriverencampment.joelowens.org/). The high schoolers had some challenging questions, ranging from tattoos to why did God kill Uzzah, but not Jonah?
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Weylan Deaver
How NOT to begin your first affirmative speech in a public debate…
“Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: I am glad of the opportunity to come before you this afternoon. I have really forgotten the wording of the proposition. The church of the New Testament was set up and organized by Jesus Christ during his personal ministry on earth. That’s only one of my habits of forgetting the proposition. It doesn’t matter much about that anyhow, as we say what we please, regardless.”
So began the Baptist, Ben Bogard, in his debate with N. B. Hardeman in 1938 (p. 158).
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J. Randal Matheny
Hilarious! This guy was their champion?
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Weylan Deaver
Yes, not his best effort. Nevertheless, it did not stop him from proceeding to affirm error. As he said, “we say what we please, regardless.”
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John Henson
At least he told the truth about that, butt about very much anything else.
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Weylan Deaver
Late next week we’ll be driving some 400 miles to west Texas, where I’ll try my hand at teaching eighth graders for a week at the Pecos River Encampment, a fascinating gathering of hundreds of Christians that has been going on over 60 years: http://pecosriverencampment.joelowens.org/. Should be beastly hot and dry, with dust blowing in your eyes on a heated breeze, but the people, fellowship, and Bible study are deep. Dan Winkler will be the main speaker this year, which will be worth enduring the elements.
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J. Randal Matheny
Dan was a favorite college teacher of one of my sons. God go with you and bless your teaching.
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Weylan Deaver
I’ve been working on Mormonism this afternoon. Surely, the success of that group is attributable to (1) man’s inherent religious nature, and (2) man’s supreme gullibility in relation to his religious nature (once he rejects the gospel).
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J. Randal Matheny
Here’s another, a guess of mine: (3) man’s attraction to the mysterious, the cryptic, the esoteric.
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guy
If the CoC had the same “mission” expectations as the LDS do (i think it’s two years doing door-to-door stuff, isn’t it?), don’t you think we may have at least fairly comparable success?
The other thing the LDS have going for them is the encouragement to procreate, right? The more kids the better. It’s a high value. So i wonder what the current ratio is then of first generation Mormons to 2nd/3rd/etc. generation Mormons. Either way, they have set up doctrinal standards that cover both forms of recruitment.
–guy
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J. Randal Matheny
Guy, I think that’s stlil in force, yes. Those are two values we’d do well to emulate, because they’re biblical.
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Weylan Deaver
I think Randal hits on the right approach, i.e. “emulate, because they’re biblical.” Personally, I try to avoid statements affirming that we have something to learn from Mormons or other religious groups. Couched in those terms (e.g. “we could learn some things from the Mormons”), it creates a mental image of Mormonism in the position of rightful teacher, and the Lord’s people in position of learners. Rather, I’d say whatever we need to learn we need learn from the Bible. If there’s anything worthy of imitation among Mormons, it is only insofar as they are imitating Scripture, in which case I’d prefer to leave them out of the equation altogether.
I don’t know what their success is with door-to-door, two-year mission efforts, but there would be no means to implement that in the Lord’s church. Nor do I think we would meet “comparable success.” The devil will always have more numbers, whereas a firm stand on the gospel will always put you in the extreme minority. For various reasons, I’m not a proponent of door knocking, and it is not a strategy conducive to success in current American culture.
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guy
Is it impossible to learn something from anyone who’s otherwise in the wrong? There’s definitely non-religious people i’ve met in my life who were more compassionate or more patient than me. i don’t see what the harm is in humbly admitting i have something to learn from them. Why is that threatening? Surely God can use anyone at all for His own purposes even if they’re not saved.
More important though, you don’t think there’s a shaming effect when false teachers end up obeying better than we? Should we be letting those we perceive to be false teachers out perform us in obedience or holiness?
In my gut, i agree about the door-knocking (maybe effective in the past, but probably no longer), however, if we’re right, why have the Mormons continued this as a major component of their mission? If we’re right, then it seems the only explanation is that they must be failing at their door-to-door efforts. But we’d have to look at the numbers to find that out i guess.
–guy
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Weylan Deaver
Guy, as to your question, “Is it impossible to learn something from anyone who’s otherwise in the wrong?”, no, I don’t think it’s impossible, and I do see your point. I suppose it’s a perspective I choose to adopt, in not viewing errorists as my teachers.
As for a “shaming effect when false teachers end up obeying better than we,” if they were obeying, they would not be false teachers; spreading LDS doctrine is not obedience to the Lord. Now, if their zeal for error outstrips our zeal for truth, then, yes, shame on us for that (though I would not grant that is the case, as a sweeping generalization).
No doubt, door knocking has results in some cases, and, perhaps, more success in certain cultures than others. Right now, I don’t see it as effective in America. I know I don’t welcome total strangers coming unexpectedly to the door of my home to attempt to interest me in buying something I don’t want, or in adopting religious views with which I do not agree. Most probably feel the same. The Mormons may continue the practice, but they continue any number of practices, such as the owning of several large corporations, and we would not look at them as a model for that. My opinion is, the gospel is a tough sell in a culture saturated with entertainment, wealth, and fleshly lusts. Modern America thrives on sin; we glorify it, practice it, try to legislatively safeguard it, indoctrinate the next generation in it. Yet, every lost soul has an obligation to be a truth-seeker and a truth-finder and a truth-obeyer.
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guy
Weylan,
i totally agree about the way LDS is run. Beyond the question whether its biblically appropriate for the church to use the contribution that way, it just seems downright shady to me for any religious institution to have control of corporations, especially on the scale of LDS. It sounds to me like mixing earthly and spiritual interests in a way that surely can’t be justified or good.
i’m thinking lately about how the conversion of prospects should go–large scale methodologies. It seems to me some sort of living-apologetic has to be the answer. The difference in lifestyle and interrelations between Christians ought to be distinctive and apparent to outsiders in a way that exposes sin for what it is. And so, when other people like false teachers manifest characteristics that i lack but which ought to be distinctive of my life and the church, that seems to have a sort of shaming effect insomuch as it spotlights my inadequacy. i agree that LDS are fatally mistaken on a number of things. But i do feel “shown up” sometimes when i think of the lengths to which they may be willing to go to propagate their beliefs and question whether i would always have the courage to do the same.
And in that sense alone do i mean to make the points about shaming effects and learning from someone else. Of course i don’t think of them as living in total or satisfactory obedience to Christ. But again, i take it that a number of people have insight into this or that particular matter that i lack and which ought to be characteristic of my life. For that kind of reason, i’ll likely continue to read the works of Francis Schaeffer and Cornelius Van Til on the subject of Christian apologetics, despite the fact that i believe Calvinism is utterly false. Or i’ll continue to thumb through commentaries of Adam Clarke or even NT Wright while studying the text. i think those guys are wrong at crucial points. But i must admit they likely have insights about this or that which i lack. And even though i think they’re wrong on those crucial points and i shouldn’t imitate those particular errors, i think i’d only be proud if i refused to admit they may have ‘out-insighted’ me in other areas which i would do well to both strive to imitate and excel them.
i agree on the tough sell–America not only thrives on sin, but our society even finds ways to codify it into a system of morals. (We had an excellent class at my congregation a year or so ago about the 7 deadly sins and talked about how each one occupies a position of value and ideal in our culture–a chilling study really when you give much thought to how deep the deception might go.) But i think such is the inevitable nature of any political empire, not just America in particular. And because the cultural inculcation of valuing sin runs so deep, even the church harbors much of it: materialism, prejudice, waste, pride, and violence. It seems as though the gospel is a tough sell even in the church, let alone the world. Perhaps we’ll have to the address the former before the latter will ever really take off.
–guy
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Weylan Deaver
Guy, I appreciate your thoughts, including your statement that “It seems to me some sort of living-apologetic has to be the answer.” I think that coincides with my own belief that the best evangelistic strategy is simply to be a happy, devoted Christian. The further the world gets from God, the more starkly will a Christian stand out in relief against the backdrop of sin (hopefully, prompting them to ask a reason for the hope that is in us–that’s the way it’s supposed to work).
I certainly do my share of reading in commentaries and books written by non-members of the church, so I’ve no disagreement with you over the possibility of benefiting from such (with caution, of course).
And, your conclusion may be spot on, as well, i.e. that the key to converting the lost is to first make sure the church are truly converted. With that being the case, is there any doubt God will give the increase, according to his own will?
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Weylan Deaver
“I am going to maintain that there is no act at all that any man in the Old Testament time or the New ever had to perform in order to be saved. Salvation is received by faith, and faith is the only thing you can do without doing anything.”
Baptist preacher, Ben Bogard, arguing against baptism in the Hardeman-Bogard Debate, p. 93 (ponder the contradiction in his last sentence).-
Weylan Deaver
That’s just one example of Bogard’s striking illogic. Here’s another from p. 97: “If you are baptized in order to become a child of God, you can’t be following Jesus Christ. Why? Because Jesus Christ was not baptized to make him the Son of God. He was already God’s Son, baptized that this fact might be ‘made manifest.’”
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Ron
We need more occasions for there to be public discussions. Some may not feel comfortable engaging in this; others should not be engaged in this, but for those who are comfortable and charitable (but fierce), they should pursue these discussions, no matter the format.
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Weylan Deaver
Yes, Ron, I’m a believer in rightly-conducted public religious debates. I was astonished to read Bogard saying his debate with Hardeman was the 227th of his career (p. 94). Assuming it’s not a typo, that’s two hundred and twenty-seven debates!
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Ron
There was a time when conviction meant something! Of course, this is not to relegate the conviction of those who have not the stomach for public discussions, but, in my view, if they support the endeavor, they are engaged.
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John Henson
Someone who wishes to circumvent the scriptures can’t make a logical argument.
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Weylan Deaver
“Dr. Bogard, I appreciate your invitation to come over to the Missionary Baptist Institute and take a course with you, but I would suggest that you come over to Freed-Hardeman College and take a real course in simple English grammar. The Lord knows you need it…If my friend would first learn his mother tongue, he would then have less time to get lost while fooling with Greek words. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation and Dr. Bogard has failed to prove it otherwise.”
N. B. Hardeman, “The Hardeman-Bogard Debate,” April 1938, pp. 73-74.Like this:
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Weylan Deaver
Bruce Metzger on the Canon
“You see, the canon is a list of authoritative books more than it is an authoritative list of books…For somebody now to say that the canon emerged only after councils and synods made these pronouncements would be like saying, ‘Let’s get several academies of musicians to make a pronouncement that the music of Bach and Beethoven is wonderful.’ I would say, ‘Thank you for nothing! We knew that before the pronouncement was made.’ We know it because of sensitivity to what is good music and what is not. The same with the canon” (quoted in Lee Strobel, The Case for Christ, p. 69).
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J. Randal Matheny
Love the quote, especially that first line.
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Ron
It is too bad one of his students of infamy (if I may use the word) has not heeded this counsel, or over the last numbers of years has discarded it.
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Weylan Deaver
iPad?
Any of you preachers use an iPad? I’ve been contemplating the possibility of replacing my desktop PC with an iPad (and wireless external keyboard), but realize it would not be a seamless transition, and maybe not even practical.
So, it may come down to replacing the desktop with a plain laptop. I am, at least, ready for more portability. Plus, I want to be able to type while standing.
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Steve
Waylan,
I too need to make a change. Please do share what you learn can make both inside and outside TFR, so possibly I a good decision. Thanks. -
Steve
Waylan,
I too need to make a change. Please do share what you learn both inside and outside TFR, so possibly I can make a good decision. Thanks.Let’s try that message again….
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Weylan Deaver
TBC Lectures
I notice the audio is now online for the just-concluded lectureship at Tennessee Bible College (actually, I’m listening to one of the sermons as I type this).
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Weylan Deaver
A Christian Senator?
Here’s a member of the Lord’s church running for U.S. Senate from Texas:
http://www.glennaddison.com/about.php
I don’t know him, personally, but it is refreshing to see a Christian so open and unashamed of his convictions on his website. I would like to see him given an opportunity to put those biblical values on display and into action in Washington.
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Richard Mansel
I grew up with a girl who is a member of the Church and a State Senator in Alabama. I’m proud of her!
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Weylan Deaver
TBC Lectures
I don’t know whether they’ll be streaming audio live, or delayed, but the schedule for this year’s weekend lectureship at Tennessee Bible College (beginning tomorrow night) is posted here:
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Weylan Deaver
Augustine on worldly knowledge vs. faith
“And what did it profit me that I could read and understand for myself all the books I could get in the so-called ‘liberal arts,’ when I was actually a worthless slave of wicked lust?…What good was it for me that my nimble wit could run through those studies and disentangle all those knotty volumes, without help from a human teacher, since all the while I was erring so hatefully and with such sacrilege as far as the right substance of pious faith was concerned? And what kind of burden was it for thy little ones to have a far slower wit, since they did not use it to depart from thee, and since they remained in the nest of thy Church to become safely fledged and to nourish the wings of love by the food of a sound faith” (Augustine [b. 354 A.D.], The Confessions, pp. 71-72).
Better to be a simple mind that sees the gospel, than be lost, though adept at Aristotle.
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Ron
Amen to that comment! In fact, amen to both of them.
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pianobron1, 
drkenney, 
guy, and 
Steve is discussing. 
Weylan Deaver
Job’s tent
Reading through part of Job this afternoon, something struck me at 29:4 where Job mentions he lived in a tent. As wealthy as we consider Job (and rightly so), his home was a tent. His wealth was measured in servants and animals. Today, we would consider it poverty to be reduced to life in a tent. We inhabit grand houses (which we might even consider too small) stuffed with all manner of items Job could never have imagined (which we might consider not new enough). With all the warnings about money in the Bible, we’d better not be thinking they apply to someone else. WE are the rich.
Weylan Deaver
Knowing when not to say…
Image via Wikipedia
In July 1946 C. S. Lewis was invited by a society’s board to speak at their meeting in Royal Albert Hall. He graciously declined the invitation with, “I am sure this meeting is important and excellent: but I must act by my own conviction that I should do no real good by speaking at it. When you have to begin by asking ‘What on earth could I say?’ it is a pretty sure sign you should say nothing” (Walter Hooper, ed., The Collected Letters of C. S. Lewis, vol. II, p. 719).
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Weylan Deaver
At Sherman Drive tonight we’ll continue our Wednesday series on “Denominations and What to Do About Them,” focusing on the Christian Church / Disciples of Christ denominations, and how they stack up in light of the New Testament.
Weylan Deaver
When was I persecuted or ridiculed for my faith? It could hardly be called “persecution” in comparison with what many have endured, but I’ll always remember an afternoon graduate counseling class at a Baptist university in Virginia. For an assignment, I had written a paper regarding a difficult marriage/divorce scenario I had had to deal with. I did not realize I would have to stand in front of the class, present the situation, and take feedback/criticism from the class of denominational preachers. It lasted for a while and, as far as I could tell, I was the only one in the room who believed Matthew 19:9.
Weylan Deaver
“The scientific method is an excellent servant of mankind. But, it makes a very poor master…The only conflict that exists between science and biblical theism is contrived and imagined. At the same time, it must be understood that there is no science of origins at all. Such a study is philosophical and revelational in general, and metaphysical in particular.”
Dick Sztanyo in the inaugural issue of “Sufficient Evidence,” published by the Warren Christian Apologetics Center, April 2011, p. 12.
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Lee Parish
Weylan, how might we read “Sufficient Evidence”. I’ve tried to find a place to subscribe/order it and cannot. Thanks!
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Weylan Deaver
Lee, try sending an email to office@warrenapologeticscenter.org . They should be able to help (they need to get subscription info on their website).
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Weylan Deaver
Thanks to a brother I’ve not met who found it and sent me a copy, I listened today to a forum that took place in November 1973 at the Harding Graduate School of Religion in Memphis between my grandfather (Roy C. Deaver) and Gus Nichols. The question was: “Can the guilty party, put away for fornication, scripturally remarry?” Nichols said “yes” and Deaver said “no.” I was five years old back then, so–thanks to modern technology–it was great to be able to hear him defending truth in his prime (about age 51). Thomas B. Warren was in the audience and, when it came time for the Q&A session, he really held Nichols’ feet to the fire, as well.
Stanley Adams, 
Michael Carter, and 1 other are discussing. -
Glenda Williams
Very interesting. I’m glad that you were able to obtain this and hear it.
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Michael Carter
Wow! I would love to hear that!
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Stanley Adams
Hello Weylan, is this tape going to be made available? I believe that I was in the audience that day. Would love to hear it.
Stan Adams, Memphis TN
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Weylan Deaver
As far as I know, the fellow who sent it to me simply contacted Harding Grad School and they sent him a copy. I assume they would do the same for others who requested it. Makes you wonder what else they have in the archives…
Weylan Deaver
This afternoon I’m to begin reading Augustine’s (born 354 A.D.) “Confessions” for the first time. I understand Calvinism owes much to Augustine’s thought. I like reading primary source documents. If this one is worthwhile, I may tackle his “The City of God” (which is much longer).
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Ron
I just listened to two lectures on Augustine. Those lectures were on “Authority” and “The origin of evil.” The one on authority, I thought, was excellent. Lecturer was by Thomas Williams.
Weylan Deaver
Favorite fast food? I think Papa John’s would top the list; just recently downloaded their app and put in my first order via iPhone–talk about convenient. A little too convenient. Dangerously convenient.
Weylan Deaver
A required book for all high school students to read? How about the Warren-Flew Debate on the Existence of God?
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Stanley Adams
I totally agree. It is not that hard, Now to find a teacher……Would some churchs spend the money for the book?
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Stanley Adams
Weylan, doing some previous reading on your blogs, I think that I am going to have to disagree with you on the Covenant vs Testament theory. Dan Billingsley is a sound preacher and is of the very conservative (not-anti) group. I do not know if you have ever used the old Tisdale Personal Work teaching charts, but that is exactly what they teach in the first page, the overview of the Bible. It is how I teach and or begin a home Bible study. Jesus preached of the good news to COME. The good news did not come until the day of Pentecost, althought we would agree that he preached good news to the people of Palistine, he preached about his being equal to God and he taught the true meaning of the ten commandments. But yet , there seems to be a good news in the time frame of John the Baptist, of the Savior and on Pentecost. Each time frame of those few years had good news suited for the time and plan of God. The woman at the well is a perfect illustration. There will be a time when all worship will be in spirit and truth, not on a mountain or a temple.
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Weylan Deaver
Stanley, bringing up Billingsly’s teaching has nothing at all to do with the subject. I very much disagree with your assessment that he is “a sound preacher.” I’ve attended three public debates in which Billingsly argued his case. Two of them were with my Dad. I consider the doctrine he teaches unbiblical and dangerous. But this thread is not really the forum for another debate on it.
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Weylan Deaver
“If I killed my wife and mother and debauched a thousand women I couldn’t go to hell–in fact, I couldn’t go to hell if I wanted to.”
A Baptist preacher in Louisville, Kentucky in 1959, exhibiting his Calvinistic doctrine of once-saved-always-saved (as quoted in Ben Bailey’s book, “A Study of Denominations and Their Doctrines,” p. 42)
Richard, and 3 others are discussing. -
Richard
Greetings,
Over the past 15 years I have been learning how to study the scriptures by covenants and not so much by Testaments. However, giving a covenant answer or response to these folks is not going to go very well because they want what they want–it wears a lot of disguises–but in the end it allows men to worship God their way and not God’s. New Covenant begins in Acts 2 not Matthew one.
The only way is keep teaching scripture..we are seed planters more than harvesters.-
Weylan Deaver
Richard,
Although the New Testament church was begun on earth in Acts 2, Jesus had already been preaching “the gospel of God” (Mark 1:14). Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are New Testament documents, written by Christians (not practicing Jews) years after the church began, which were accepted as the gospel by the early church. I hope you do not make the mistake of taking Matthew, Mark, Luke and John as part of the Old Testament. But, what do your comments have to do with the Calvinism in the above quote? I see no connection.
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Stephen R. Bradd
That may be the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard!
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Weylan Deaver
Isn’t that the truth!
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Steve
Is there really an understandable point to Richard’s comments? I wonder from whom he is being taught this covenant / testament belief?
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Richard Hill
I can tell you of at least one person teaching this. I suddenly started receiving his emails maybe a year ago. His website is http://www.biblestudiesbydanbillingsly.net/
How does this idea jive with all the kingdom teachings and kingdom parables? Didn’t Jesus say “You have heard it said. . .but I say to you. . .” Is he not comparing Moses’ teachings with kingdom, i.e. New Covenant?
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Steve
RH, Sometimes when I write into the night I am not very clear. My first question was meant to be more about the relationship of the original post by Weylan (the Baptist preacher quote) and my difficulty in seeing any linkage of “Richard’s comments” to the quote. Sorry about that confusion. About the new covenant beginning in Acts 2, I do have some difficulty in accepting his point on this as well. Conceptually speaking, if we can agree that Jesus is teaching everyone how to live, as recorded in the gospels; and, if this is radically different and diametrically opposed to the old covenant, than how can one say these teachings were part of the old covenant? When I looked at the link you provided above, I can see how it might be what influenced “Richard” to make his comments above. If so, though, I still do not understand this comment found in that link. “only the New Testament of Christ in Acts 2 – Revelation 22 sets forth his teaching that applies to men in this new covenant age” No, I think one must also include the Gospels as teachings…”that applies to men in this new covenant age.” I know it is late, but does that not make sense? Good night to one and all…
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Richard
Greetings, The authority for the way we are to live and work and worship God comes to us after the cross. In dealing with folks who believe as illustrated in the post–Taking one’s authority from Acts 2 forward–puts a real dent in Calvinism.
Wednesday night I listened to an 82 year old preacher say pretty much what some of you are saying about the gospel of Matthew..The reason that it took me many years to begin to see covenants–is due to the way I was taught the scriptures. Same way most of you have.
The reason that “covenant teaching” or teaching it “your way” does not work–is not due to fault on our part nor on God’s.
Many of us are just like the Calvinist–just read your responses to the idea of covenant–We all want what we want and because we are Christians–does not mean we all have it right.
The Calvanist has been taught–His wagonwheel rut theology does not allow for any text or texts that would alter his conclusions.
We are the same way about many things–fact is the scriptures do clearly identify and teach covenants but we have not been trained nor inclined to think about scriptures from a covenant standpoint.One advantage that covenant teaching has–putting Matthew Mark Luke and John up to the cross under the Old Covenant–is that it keep each covenant law under each covenant. Calvinistic teaching has a much more difficult path when using just the New covenant as our authority.
Now, my final sentence in my first post is still true. When one will read the texts exactly as given–a Calvin person can see the evidence to adjust his thinking toward the teaching. Same is true with Covenants.
Let me close with an illustration…The “good News” of the kingdom of God in Mark 1 is not the same “good news” of Acts 2.
Richard-
Weylan Deaver
Richard, you are woefully mistaken, and the error is serious. Jesus claimed his words would judge us (John 12:48), and that certainly includes his words in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John. Jesus gave instruction that would doubtless have application in the church (cf. Matt. 18:15-17). Jesus gave new legislation regarding marriage/divorce (cf. Matt. 19). It is true that there was an Old Covenant and we live under a New Covenant. But terms of the New Covenant began to be preached in the days of John the Immerser and Jesus. Jesus’ death on the cross ended the old and began the new. Shortly thereafter, the terms of the new began to be enforced in Acts 2. But you must allow for a transition period in which God was moving things from one to the other. It is a great mistake to say the Gospels are Old Testament literature. Remember, “The law and the prophets were until John: from that time the gospel of the kingdom of God is preached…” (Luke 16:16).
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John Henson
Structurally sound, Weylan.”Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions,” (Ecclesiastes 7:29).
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John Henson
Scripturally, that is.
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Weylan Deaver
I learned today that my friend, Bart Warren’s, mother passed away this week. Bart is younger than I, and his mother, Susan Warren, was not old, but had already suffered several years with Alzheimer’s. Within the last couple of years, Bart’s father, Lindsey Warren, passed away at a young age. They were good people. Bart preaches for the South Green Street congregation in Glasgow, Kentucky. He is the grandson of the late Thomas B. Warren, and a founder of the Warren Christian Apologetics Center (http://warrenapologeticscenter.org/).
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J. Randal Matheny
Sorry to hear of her passing. I don’t know any of the Warren family, but I pray the Lord will comfort each member.
Weylan Deaver
“And was it not by baptism that all the primitive disciples entered into the kingdom? But separate remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit from baptism, or from the profession of Christianity, however it be made, and what is it worth? Or can there be righteousness, peace, and joy in or by the Holy Spirit, where the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit is not enjoyed? We beseech you, brethren, consider these things.”
Thomas Campbell, c. 1828 (from his memoirs, compiled by son, Alexander, pp. 242-243)
Weylan Deaver
On today’s “nudge” regarding things or habits fallen into disuse, I remember carrying a pocketknife to public elementary school in the 1970′s, which would likely cause a boy to be expelled today. Not so long ago, I had a knife in my pocket every time I boarded a plane, which is now impossible. These days, I find myself less and less wearing a wristwatch, and growing more accustomed to depending on my mobile phone for the time (and email, Facebook, Twitter, weather, news…).
But those are trivial compared to the fact that Bibles the world over seem in much less use than they once were. This plays out in increased violence, religious confusion, hatred, ignorance, calling good evil and vice versa, lack of respect for God, and practically every deleterious effect imaginable.
Weylan Deaver
What feature of creation best displays God’s hand? As a Texan accustomed to relatively flat topography, I think of a majestic mountain landscape. Then again, it’s hard to beat a canvas of stars, spanning the horizon, suspended on nothing, twinkling against the emptiness of spaces only God knows. As the Psalmist said, the heavens declare his glory; the sky shows his handiwork.
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J. Randal Matheny
So that’s why we were all laying on the ground in your backyard, staring up at the sky, in the wee hours of the morning!
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Weylan Deaver
…awaiting a not-frequent-enough streak from the Perseid meteor shower.
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Weylan Deaver
The best Bible class study book? Generally, I don’t use study books in the classes I teach, which are mostly verse-by-verse studies of a particular Bible book. But, when I have used a class book, the ones resorted to most often came from Wendell Winkler or Dan Winkler or Mike Winkler–good material.
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Stephen R. Bradd
My thoughts exactly, Weylan.
Weylan Deaver
“It is not wise to fill the memory with idle tales in regard to Biblical characters.”
J.W. McGarvey on Acts 8:24, commenting on extra-biblical traditions that sprang up about Simon the Sorcerer, as recorded by ancient historians.
Weylan Deaver
Warren Christian Apologetics Center
If you’re not familiar with this new work, please take a moment to look at their site (http://warrenapologeticscenter.org/), dedicated to pursuing the defense of Christianity, as did its namesake, the late Thomas B. Warren. Later this month the center will publish the first issue of its apologetics journal, called “Sufficient Evidence.” I believe a subscription to the quarterly journal is $15. The center should serve the church as a great resource in a world run amuck in error, confusion, and foolishness in all flavors.
Like this:
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Mike Riley
This is a great work – one that Christians should help support in view of religious error that is so prevalent in our world today.
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Ron
This is a website I bookmarked a while back. I will be subscribing to the quarterly.
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John Henson
Weylan, I tried to find how to subscribe to the hournal online, but was unable. How do I subscribe?
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Weylan Deaver
John, try sending an email to director@warrenapologeticscenter.org or office@warrenapologeticscenter.org and they should be able to help you.
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Weylan Deaver
“You can not conceive what a terrible dust our humble name has kicked up.”
Thomas Campbell, in a letter to his wife on 20 August 1830, referencing the criticism heaped on his plea for primitive Christianity. Opponents referred to “Campbellism, Campbellites, and heretics…in almost every sentence, from the one end of Kentucky to the other…and in the papers from Georgia to Maine.”
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Mike Riley
The devil’s advocates have not changed since Mr. Campbell penned these words, with one exception – there’s just more of them today. :)
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Stanley Adams
And some from our own side!
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Mike Riley
Unfortunately, yes.
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J. Randal Matheny
Stanley, sadly, you’re spot on. Some of our own have denominationalized themselves as they profess to abandon sectarianism.
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Weylan Deaver
“Our intention is to bring them over, if we can; but if not, to oppose them openly.”
In a letter of 9 June 1828 from Thomas Campbell, in Ohio, to his wife, Jane, expressing his plan regarding an upcoming meeting of preachers from whom he expected opposition (the church needs more men of his mettle).Like this:
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Phil Sanders
Weylan, I am amazed at times how many of our brethren remain silent when they oppose something rather than speak up. So many folks do not know speaking against sin is one way of affirming righteousness. They think all speaking against is somehow unkind and embarrassing. Jesus, however, spoke openly of the Pharisees’ hypocrisy (Matthew 23). He did not do this in anger but with a desire for something better. Jesus spoke with a broken heart, but He never remained silent.
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Steve
Amen & Amen! Thank you brothers.
Weylan Deaver
Jesus’ most striking phrase? How about from John 8:44–
“Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do.”
Most today don’t seem to know what sin is (or sinners), but Jesus pulled no punches.
Weylan Deaver
Historical footnote
In his revised commentary on Acts (published in 1892), J.W. McGarvey has an interesting footnote on page 77:
“These thoughts were first written amid the din and confusion of our great civil war, when even devout men on both sides were beside themselves with the passions of the time. The composition of the first edition of this Commentary was once interrupted by the booming of cannon in the siege of Lexington, Mo., not many miles from the author’s home in 1862, and once by the march and countermarch of contending armies through Lexington, Ky., where he lived in 1863.”
As we compose sermons, articles, blog posts, we can at least be grateful it is not to the sound of cannon fire, bomb blasts, or combat troops marching outside the window.
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John Henson
That’s an important thing to be thankful for!
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Ron
I remember, Weylan, when I read that the impact it had on me. Being somewhat of a Civil War student (on the low end), when I read what he said I had to stop reading further; I just sat there and thought on it. If I recall correctly, I don’t think I finished that current spat of reading.
Waylan,
Thanks for the historical reminder, since we “have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin” (Hebrews 12:4), but we may yet pay our dues (Hebrews 11:32-40). Islam, like Roman Catholicism, is passively agreeable as a minority of a population, but in a majority, they are like our adversary the Devil, walking about like a lion, seeking whom they may devour (1 Peter 5:8). Whatever our lot, we must not “fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matthew 10:28). Keep admonishing, brother.